I”ve been doing some more reading - one of my thoughts was to create a section on the sidebar with resources/writings on religion I have used and perused along the way, should others want to have a look through. A lot of this recent thinking was kicked off by a post on Pickled Politics titled Feminism and Islam, back in February -which really revived a bit of my old militant feminist spirit - and got me thinking about the problems of religion again. (I found some really interesting stuff on Islamic feminism and related thinking & isms -along the way, which i thought was very pertinent from the point of view of religious reform)
Now some of the commentary out there on religion is likely to be “biased” and I think it would be pretty obvious that some are what a some people would consider “islamophobic”, etc. and some of it is clearly biased on the “religious” side, so on and so forth.
More reading into what are the primary sources, is probably a good idea, and what i”ve been doing a lot of this recently. I thought i”d spend more time with the Hadiths - mainly Sahih Muslim and Bukhari from the very useful USC MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts, (and in all good time, of course, the Quran. ) Very interesting reading to say the least! I can”t imagine if one went to a class on Islam, or dawah classes: how would the teachers get past questions, queries etc. I suppose out of those of us born Muslim - most are probably not going to get the nerve up to ask any smarmy questions.
A lot of the tales which appear to be quite superstitious. From a social and cultural history perspective - this is all very interesting for me, and rather revealing.
Some tidbits to share:
Sahih Bukhari :Volume 4, Book 55, Number 545: Um Salama said, “Um Salaim said, “O Allah”s Apostle! Allah does not refrain from saying the truth! Is it obligatory for a woman to take a bath after she gets nocturnal discharge?” He said, “Yes, if she notices the water (i.e. discharge).” Um Salama smiled and said, “Does a woman get discharge?” Allah”s Apostle said. “Then why does a child resemble (its mother)?”
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 546:Narrated Anas: When “Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, “I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle” Allah”s Apostle said, “Gabriel has just now told me of their answers.” “Abdullah said, “He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews.” Allah”s Apostle said, “The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.” On that “Abdullah bin Salam said, “I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah.” “Abdullah bin Salam further said, “O Allah”s Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me.” The Jews came to Allah”s Apostle and “Abdullah went inside the house. Allah”s Apostle asked (the Jews), “What kind of man is “Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?” They replied, “He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us.” Allah”s Apostle said, “What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?” The Jews said, “May Allah save him from it.” Then “Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, “I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah.” Thereupon they said, “He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us,” and continued talking badly of him. Volume 4, Book 55, Number 552: Allah”s Apostle said, “Whenever a person is murdered unjustly, there is a share from the burden of the crime on the first son of Adam for he was the first to start the tradition of murdering.”
Hmm - a bit original sin-y that last bit? and what”s with this Gabriel is the enemy of the Jews, ahem! that sounds like maybe this is where some of the more dangerous thinkers get their funny ideas from?
On a more positive note ( yep!) I always think it”s a good idea to find out what others are thinking - and to not always focus in on the negative impressions out there - but see what positive ideas/thoughts etc. religious texts are inspiring in others. A new initiative ( and a great one i think - not too many others out there are doing the same) is the Quran Blog -which is a collaborative blogger effort, and the idea is that the writers share a particular verse that they have been reading, and their thoughts and insights and interpretations. I”m looking forward to reading more entries and posts - i”m hoping it will help me in being a bit more clear/reflexive about my own reactions to the same verses etc. so on and so forth. In any case, it is something to see this kind of thinking being documented.
You will be surprised what I have been hearing about things. You know I used to be a believer that everything is clearer and better with Islam. Lately, I happen to converse with some people who have just toppled my world. I am not satisfied because I know too little knowledge is dangerous and I need to move ahead but whenever some athiests come up to you how would you respond?
What really makes me sad is the way non-muslims are supposed to be treated in an Islamic state. I have read at places that they live under the threat of death! Makes me sick at times just to think about it.
Excellent blog, i found this post to be quite thought provoking and hilarious at the same time.
So let me get this right… on the ejaculation thing… if a couple want their child to look like the mum, they just have to engage in a lot of foreplay first? lol
and on the doing the rounds thing with our prophet. Islam has always been a sexist religion has it not?
I have forever also been confused on which Hadith to accept and which to discard… and now i am glad i am not the only one. I mean ok so Sahih Bukhari and muslim are generally accepted.. but how do we know if they were sober when they wrote all this?
thanks faisal! yes that is quite funny isn’t it. TDH i know what you mean.
omar, each to their own. of course humans will have different norms. however, does “God” not transcend culture? seems not!
but regarding your wider point Omar, about what ‘islam’ is or isn’t - i am not focusing on actually, i was going by - as someone brought up as a Muslim - what is accepted as texts central to ‘islam’ whatever that is.
“however, does ‘God’ not transcend culture? seems not!”
I can get into the simple explanation or I can get into theology. I think I can do both, very shortly.
The simple explanation is that yes, as an empirical fact, God reveals Himself differently according to the culture. The Old Testament, New Testament, Koran. There is One God and His speech is according to the people and their culture. (I would also include other traditions, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. With Taoism, for example, Chinese Muslims indigenized by using the language of Taosim to express Islam, since Chinese tradition, existing outside the Abrahamic box, and script couldn’t accommodate Islam. See http://nawawi.org/downloads/article5.pdf for details.)
Even in the Koran, the prophets are commanded to speak in the language of their people. Our Prophet (S) even spoke to each person according to their capability. The bedouin, for example, were treated and taught according to their background.
As for theology. Revelation is the intersection of the horizontal dimension and vertical dimension. The meeting between God as such and man as such. God being One/Absolute and man being multiple/relative. Try reflecting on that. That’s why in Christianity, some interpret the cross to be the the intersection of the horizontal with the vertical. The star of David also represents this intersection.
“but regarding your wider point Omar, about what ‘islam’ is or isn’t - i am not focusing on actually, i was going by - as someone brought up as a Muslim - what is accepted as texts central to ‘islam’ whatever that is.”
My comment was in response to your comment #47. But regarding your post. My main criticism in your approach is that it’s no different from the fundamentalists. I mean, the Koran says “kill the idolaters wherever you find them”. Does that mean I should go out on a pagan killing spree?
We should all go out there and come to our own understanding of Islam. I totally agree. But it would be better to first examine the intellectual trends, and methodologies, out there — Wahhabis, Salafis, traditional Sunnism, Shi’ism, political Islam, etc. And then come to an informed understanding of what’s going on.
There are Wahhabis who would take the hadith you posted and conclude, “Jews are scum! God says so!” They are so literal they even believe God has a hand and limbs, because of certain Koranic verses and hadith.
Then there are other scholars who would interpret literature in a more sophisticated manner. So, taking the “kill the idolators” verse, classical commentary suggests that it refers to the Treaty of Hudaybiyya and the subsequent conquest of Mecca. And Koranic verses and hadith, related to the Jews, would be interpreted as descriptive (not prescriptive) of the relationship between the Muslims and Jews in Medina and so on.
Actually, I take back studying all the intellectual trends etc. That’s an abstract statement. There are many Western scholars who have invested their time to explain Islam in a way people with a Western background can comprehend it. (Since it has to make sense. Religions don’t spread solely by and for power.) William C. Chittick’s Vision of Islam is a excellent introduction. Just stay away from pamphlets and Wahhabi literature.
Peace,
Omar
thanks for your comments Omar. Yes it is interesting that religions are not more honest about what they are really about, personally i think it is ridiculous that they are portrayed by those who wish to disseminate them - as being about ethics and morality. Clearly it is not, so I feel that is a significant misrepresentation, and hence my interest in pointing that out. Once that is set aside, there are many interesting aspects - for example as with Sufism, and with any ideas of a metaphysical nature - of course. To criticise religion for its negativities, most notably its attempt to control social organisation through reference to the metaphysical - is hardly to sound a death-knell to introspection or reflection on any level, metaphysical or not, spiritual or otherwise, however people choose to define such things for themselves. I should have thought that was obvious to any intelligent reader.
As far as i can see, group identity and the historical dimension are really the main facets of what Islam is to most Muslims. And of course people are free - and should be - to believe in what they like, for reasons which they deem fit and correct. I do think that the morality element should be made much clearer though, if for reasons of honesty if nothing else.
I had forgotten to respond to your point about norms about sexual morality varying between cultures - which is of course often the case, to different degrees. However there are many shared aspects. And i think with what i am discussing here - its pretty obvious that my assumption is that - in all our human cultures, capture and rape by victor - however justified/’normalized’ it may be to the victor/(or people who see the victor’s side of things) , it is certainly universal that the victims - or victim’s families, would also feel traumatized by it, and find it unacceptable.
you may feel free to disagree with that, for whatever reason, or on the grounds of moral relativity, or lack of knowledge about people in those situations throughout history. (i would say it has been a very common situation. most recently we have the bangladesh and pakistan situation and the ‘disputes’ about women being raped).
and yes, you can call me a fundmentalist for having such an opinion. ( i do feel it is a pretty fundamental facet of being human -empathy - and recognising what your “victim” is going to be going through, because you damn well ought to know that you’d feel the same yourself. without that empathy, we’d all be sociopaths. not connecting how we feel when something is done to us, with doing that same thing to someone else. but perhaps that’s the point, we humans are probably more sociopathic than we realise.)
but i digress. I am operating on the principle that if your wife was raped tomorrow by some enemy soldier, you wouldn’t like it, regardless of any justification that may be proffered, and that that would be a perfectly normal human reaction, and that is something i strongly empathize with.
If the Muslim men’s wives had been similarly captured and ‘used’ ( if you dont want to use the term ‘rape’) by some Mecca men, for example, i feel pretty sure the Muslims would have had some objections. ( Which is also tied up with doing it to the other side first, so you are victor, and not the victim and have it done to you)
Would you disagree with that?
Or would you suggest that if the Muslim’s men’s wives had been captured by their enemy after victory over the Muslim men - and did the same sort of thing - “married” them - or had sexual relations with them which they claimed were legitimate - that the victims would not have an issue? Would not dispute that the Meccans had no ‘legitimate’ claim to having sex with the Muslim wives conquered, or even worse! having sex with the Prophet’s wives. yes - why dont’ you think about that - are you suggesting you wouldn’t find it offensive - why you’d find it blasphemous wouldn’t you. And if he were an ordinary man - you think he wouldn’t mind having his wife taken by some conquering soldier?
That suggest to me that they knew full well how the ‘other’ side would be feeling. I think we all know that for centuries - in the desert - and elsewhere - conquerors taking the local women has always been a way at getting at the local men. As it still is now unfortunately in many conflicts, and also in peacetime - ordering the rape of a woman to humiliate her tribe, her men -we all know many instances of this. Certainly in Bedouin desert tribal customs which were around before and at the time of Mohammed.
But perhaps religion - like war - exhibits sociopathy?
I am less concerned with any notion of the divine or the lack thereof - i am more concerned with human behaviour - ( and the excuses we provide ourselves) perhaps i should make that clearer. I am only interested in religion as a good case-study on human beings and our behaviour, and our beliefs.
Sonia,
How was your holiday?
‘So, as it ever was, as it ever was’, to quote the God like David Byrne of Talking Heads.
There is absolutely nothing unique about Muslims in that respect, most religions view ‘the other’ as some sort of alien. To do with what they like.
Which, is, of course, ridiculous.
I do not know whether you and Omar are coming good mates or something?
Omar asks a legitimate question:
Well it might, but you’d have to be a damn fool to try it.
Which is the difference between secular, or human, law and biblical or Koranic law. You are unlikely to get off lightly at the Old Bailey for saying you were acting on the instructions of some ancient text or another. Now would you? Whether that would be inadmissable in a biblical or Koranic Court is, frankly, moot. Chances are, a wee bit here, a wee bit there, you’d have a chance of getting off.
Sonia, you run a very libertarian web site, so can I conclude by saying:
fuck that!
“are coming good mates”.
Bloody hell! That might go down in history as the faux pas of the year. So it might.
Becoming. That was what I meant. This wee Freudian chap at the back of my brain is currently being exorcised by professionals. But he is damn slippery.
thanks for your comments douglas! and i hope you had a lovely start to the new year! i had a great time thanks - hope to be writing back here again about it very soon..
i definitely intend to look up Omar’s recommended texts. I just noticed though he said
i wonder if he perhaps thinks i haven’t a Muslim background , and that i grew up in the ‘West’? and not in the “Global South”? certainly it seems like perhaps he assumes i didnt spend most of my formative growing up years in the Middle East? I have of course - through my own experience - of being a ‘born’ Muslim - an idea of what keeps most of us as Muslims, (most of whom dont know jack about dimensions, vertical or otherwise, and couldn’t care less one way or the other i feel) even those of us who might wish to not be really, and again i dont think this very different to other religions elsewhere. and i think the experience of Muslims in majority muslim countries is different to Muslims living in non-majority countries, for example, in the US or UK etc. So i don’t have any personal experience of the Western Muslim persepctive - e.g. the ‘British Muslim’ experience, or the American Muslim experience.
And i know very little about what drives those who convert to Islam in the West, ( and elsewhere) - so hence reading blogs of folks like Umar Lee very anthropologically interesting for me. ( the way its tied up with notions of race and what appear to be cultural superiority/inferiority complexes - i find thoroughly fascinating! I wonder what the reaction to Islam’s history of imperialism is, these guys seem to be generally obsessed with ‘white imperialism’ and appear to see Islam as some sort of ‘antidote’. Which of course it may offer now to them , but in the same way the “West” has its negative history, so too does the history of Islam and its expansion around the world, i’m interested to see how objective people can be about these things, there’s a little bit of ‘hero worship’ going on it seems..again very interesting sociologically)
To sum up, i think i used to know very little about what people seem to refer to as a “Western” conception of Islam - whether of non-Muslims -and Muslims who grew up in the “West”. Obviously given the hoo-ha since 9/11 its been very interesting to follow the way this whole thing is framed.
I would say i definitely have a different angle i’m approaching all this stuff with, i’ve been talking mostly about the wider context of my own journey through religion - and about one specific aspect. so i think ive been approaching it from the lens of my own personal background and story. WHIch is after all - what blogs are for - aren’t they!
Sonia,
You said:
Absolutely!
It has frankly been an education for me, reading these threads.
thank you very much dear douglas, i too have learnt a lot from reading about other people’s thoughts and perspectives.
Sonia,
I’d hazard that you do not see women as inferior to men? My own position.
I’d guess that you’d reject any religion that thought so? My own position.
It is, thus, difficult to understand a feminist Islam. Does it exist? And if it does, does it have the power to make a difference?
heh douglas you do come up with questions!
i suspect there is really a multitude of questions/complexities in what you ask.
firstly there’s so much confusion about terminology, people mean different things by similar terms, feminist islam ( would mean different things to different people) are we talking about ‘Islam’ or are we talking about feminists. are we talking about people wanting to reform Islam ( like say..Irshad Manji or someone) or are we talking about wanting to change social practices that may be bound up with religious belief. And if we’re talking about changing what actually passes as ‘religion’ - well that’s a whole different topic altogether with its own sub-questions. What we mean by “religion” - lots of people are there to protect orthodoxy, are we talking about looking at new religious interpretation etc. And what do most people thinkof when they think ‘religion’ anyway? Something abstract or something real. i think its always linked to why religion is important to people. i’m a bit post-modern ( and wussy and soppy and very un- “stern -enlightenment-Modernist-” in my wanting to have people happy, if religion is a comfort blanket, i think we need to work with that, not necessarily against it ( of course this doesn’t mean one can’t go on being critical at the same time)
or is the whole thing about comparing different kinds of feminisms in a competitive kind of way ( which for some people, there seems to be some big competition out there, frankly its a bit spiteful and meow! so i dont find it very interesting.) we should be critical of anything and any -ism we find!
personally i think women who are religious who are going to pass it on to their kids are the ones with lots of responsibility in passing things on, how they bring up their sons and daughters, and that is a big thing, so i think its great so many women are thinking about feminism and their religion together, how they can fit, etc. they’re more likely to make a difference to the lives of the kids being brought up Muslim. in the end people obviously have the freedom ( and have done in many ways) to make religion into what they want ( the evolution of Christianity and what it means to people is interesting)
i think its useful speaking out our minds too, so that people realise they’re not the only ones with questions in their heads. we can only share our thought processes. I dont know if im right or not about god or the lack thereof, i find religion to be not useful for me, but clearly that is not necessarily the case for the vast majority of people who are born in the indian subcontinent ( for example) and for whom, faith of some kind or other will be a big part of their lives and their social spheres. so id rather people infused a bit of ‘feminism’ into that, so slowly religious customs over time become less problematic for women. (e.g. FGM being practices by muslim women who say its to do with religious requirements)
Overall i do find intellectually interesting people whose thinking lead them to look for an explanation of what appear to be contradictions between what is believed to be good intent in religion and the disparity between real practice, and often what is actually written in text. this of course opens up the business of religious interpretation. asma barlas is is very interesting person to read on this, no doubt amongst others. {’unreading’ patriarchal interpretations} i dont know very much about it but its generally about working out how much of what is religious canon is due to subjective interpretation etc. Of course there is a big battle with orthodox thinkers trying to protect those who have that monopoly pretty much sown up tight, but again, its about how widely these ideas get disseminated and spark people’s own questions, and through that, eventually, social practices. So i am interestedly looking on.
but at the end of the day, we as people need to work out for ourselves- on the world, earthly level, im not talking about metaphysics here, or the deity or not thing, the reality of our social practices- obviously being connected to how what we think and behave, how we teach children and pass memes on. if we can’t be critical enough to work out how its all interconnected, phooey, but well then its our responsibility to accept our agency in that too, can’t be going off and shoving it ‘off’ onto ’someone else’. ‘he did it!’…
Sonia,
Hadn’t been here for a day or so. What you say requires a lot of consideration. Will get back to you, after I’ve got my little brain around what you had to say!
What is this forum, a place to mock Islam. People here have no knowledge of science or have any logic. Firstly, a woman can have an ejaculation, it has been noted many a time in african villages, perhaps it is their diet or some innate physiologcal difference. Howvever the fact is a simple life living off the land such as that lived by women in the prophets (SAWS) time and these African women seems to be a prequisite for acheiving female ejaculation. Second point I would like to make is to the individual who has brought it upon themselves to mock the hadith about the prophet Mohammed (SAWS) visiting 9 of his wives in one night. I see nothing strange about his hadith at all. As a medical student I can tell you sex is as natural as eating, our bodies are made for it, otherwise the sex hormones, testosterone and oestrogen would not exist. Islam prides itself on letting us know we are not prohibited from fulfilling our basic human instincts. We can eat how much we want as long as it is not prohibited food and we can have sex as much as we want as long as it is not done in prohibited fashion. Our religion is not like chrisitanity where sex is seen as something dirty and unnatural (which goes against modern science, our bodies are literally built for sex). The prophet Mohammed (SAWS) took many wives to cement various realtionships with leaders and communities, and some to catalogue his private life so we can know how to follow his (SAWS) example today and practice Islam. For example Aisha (RA) was picked to be Mohammed (SAWS) wife due to her intelligence, she has a pivotal role in Islam and is known as the mother of beleivers, she narrated more hadiths than any male companion of the prophet (SAWS). She could only give his intimate details by being his wife. The Quran says marry more than one wife if you can do them justice, meaning treat them equally. It may not have been easy but our beloved prophet (SAWS) treated all his wives equally for the sake of Islam, even if it meant visiting 11 of them in one night. That would surely take a massive amount of fitness and energy or perhaps just a strong resolve in the the heart to do what is right.