i think its hard with group ideologies -because anyone seeking to go too far down the line with whatever ideology- risks becoming totalitarian, and forgetting the individual views of those in the group.

Hence i always avoid ( though people try really hard to pin you down!) being put down as subscribing to X or Y group ideology.

as far as i can see - i’ve never found any two people ( even those who allegedly imagine they are!) agreeing on the same version of their ‘ideology’ anyway!! Perhaps that’s cos i’m too much of an individualist and anarchist…

I have a lot of Indian friends who have similar views as myself. Perhaps it is due to our shared experience of how, in India we experienced Islamic terrorism first hand. As a matter of fact you would be surprised to know that many Russians, Thais, Isrealis, Balinese, Australians, Chinese and Phillipines share similar views as ours.

To simply put we are FED up with RELIGOUS mumbo jumbo. And we want it to end. For me there is no difference between Osama Bin Ladens version of Islamo fascism and Adolf Hitler. I have least bit of sympathy for them. No amount of human emotion called empathy can ever make me feel sorry about OBL, for he is bereft of humanity. Till the day such people exist, people like me will make sure that we are heard.

That pretty much sums it. But I need to emphasize one very important point that you have also observed here. The interaction between social groups can only become a win-win scenario when some obsolete views of groups are to be discarded. Precisely those views that make us believe that interactions have to be a zero sum game scenarios.

We as humans are discovering the truth about the nature. When billions of individual cells cooperate, they create an organism - us. There is no single set of cells that rule over the rest. Like wise in this new age of information, we are only begining to realize how we can complement each other. This, is not an opinion, but an observation.

Sonia, I was right here in US when 9/11 attacks took place. My horror, turned into rage literally immediately. For I could not comprehend the amount of hate that those suicide attackers had to kill civilians the way they did. Ever since that day, I realized that such people have no place to exist in this world of ours. I have supported Bush from that INSTANT onwards.

My dream is to see, Middle East as string of liberal democracies much like in Europe. Germany and Japan were screwed up their ASSESS, to get converted into liberal democracies they are now. Today as we write on these blogs Middle East, is a land where bigotry is name of the game. This bigotry breeds bigots like Mohammed Atta and Osama bin laden. I certainly support this “neo-con” vision for a Greater Middle east initiative. Where imposing liberal views by force can lead to change.

Sorry this vision is not about OIL as many in Europe would WANT people to believe. Just because these regions happen to be rich in OIL does not give justification to ASSUME that these wars in ME are about OIL. In past when Americans had similar “CIVILIZING DREAMS”, OIL never played a role. Veitnam, didnt have OIL, yet Americans lost over 50000 lives for the cause of defeating communists. Korea didnt have OIL. In case of Korea - Americans partially won. Just look at South Korea and compare it success to North Korea.

Yes, we Indians maybe fools, as cimurai say, in fighting wars that are not ours. I cant say about the past. I can indeed say for the present. We have a choice, we can either let religious bigotry continue its existence - that same bigotry that is responsible for so many conflicts in this world today- or to fight this bigotry. Choice is yours (not just you sonia, but for people in general ).

anyhow i just wanted to address a few things on this comment thread -( i haven’t had much time to really put anything down recently) I also wanted to acknowledge something Ven said higher up - about cultural diversity - and celebrating that, and a politically unified world which is culturally diverse as well - which i think is really important and a very good point. United in our diversity! That is really key and is i suppose quite a paradox in some ways..

Fundamentally - its been clear to me for a while - and i think this point of Ven’s is interesting from that perspective - that most people in this world do want the same thing - which is for them and their families to be well and safe, and generally success and peace. I think even in times of war ( or perhaps its easier to see it then) the similarity becomes clearer - everyone wants to win, no-one wants their loved ones to die, no one wants to be the one who is going to suffer. Also Ven what you said about right-wingers and Christians-or anyone! - in America - yeah i do actually agree that most of these people are simply following what are generally normal values and not particularly different to anyone else. I think its interesting realizing that because then maybe we can see a way to achieve a ‘politically unified’ world which allows people and individuals within their freedom and diversity : without turning on each other - which as you rightly point out Ven - is so ridiculous and insane given we don’t need to- as most of us want the same good things for ourselves. Its a case - again - of not competing, but collaborating. And that’s hard when groups are suspicious of each other, and go head to head and fight - which is often so unnecessary - when really they both want to be understood and not really be ‘the bad guy’. The KEY thing is how do we achieve what we all want without that necessarily involving conflict with others’ interests - e.g. as in Ven’s analogy above - how do we avoid turning it into a zero sum game. Which basically boils down to people realizing that they do have the same interests and same dynamics- and that we don’t have to compete against each other - but co-operate and collaborate.

And you see this is where social systems come in - the interaction between individuals and institutions and the ‘overall system’ is obviously resultant of all these different interactions. So say for example how ‘America’ as a bloc is represented - say on the international geopolitical scene - is a complex interplay between those leading the current govt. administration, others who are caught up in the govt. system who may have different ideas to the Administration, and a whole bunch of normal individuals who live in that country.

So the hard thing is to figure out the collective direction that’s being taken - and trying to figure out how to steer that differently.

Anyway I think its all very interesting these reactions expressed as i find it very useful empirical research: deconstruct social reality and people’s understandings of groups and boundaries - and how people construct concepts of ‘the other’. As i’ve indicated - this is where my sociological interest lies and im considering further research in this field - so its really quite handy having this material here. I don’t want any of u lot to think i’m ‘impressing’ views on you guys - actually im interested in the ways you’ve come to having these views - really - because by the time you’ve come up with argument X - i don’t really want to say well actually no its not right - because of course there is a wealth of experience and context that has shaped that reasoning - and i’m interested in finding out more about that reasoning has been shaped.

( so you see IC - there may not be as many differences between you and ‘these communists’!! they probably want the same things you do but have chosen a different approach, eh?)

( and Ven - psst…i am critical of the Bush administration and the way it is steering ‘America’ on the international scene - i am also very critical of its internal dynamics specially in terms of the political economy of its media - and how it seeks to socially pressure individuals - i don’t think i’m ‘prejudiced’ against ‘americans’ - i’ve lots of american friends, and family actually - and having lived there i completely see why and how things have ended up the way they have..)

Right - peace everyone!

Now, in this war of nothing to do, once again, on blogspheres, anywhere, any place, many young Indian once again standing in the front line defending a value that not belong to them, some shouts …America … America , while some others , free thinkers … free thinkers, …. Ah perhaps its jus a few same person/s and/or character that have a trouble mind, lost in illusion in searching for a light in a bright day light.

I do met them here, and at guardian newsblog too, with the same and/or different name or character, anyway the tune sound familiar, with the same breath, carry the same idea.

like always I throw my lines, .. just for fun, to see what’s down there to have a little fun, the baits was approx. a two feet long tuna, twenty minutes waiting , there my fishing pole show its got a prey, I snaps, its hard enough … within few minutes my 190lb line cuts off, it’s a big predator, about 20ft long. …

never mind this time, for the next , since I know there something big down there in the water, I would make a try with a stronger lines, the one that could afford a pulling strength of 380lb. ….. now I am thinking about baits, … bigger hook need bigger baits, …. since the fish down there is a male, a lusty female seems to be appropriate, ….. something with ‘x’ is the best try ……. Hopefully my lines didn’t get cuts again, …… or my baits become delicious meals for my prey.

Now that you raise the topic of Bihar, Sonia, I would like to tell you that Bihar too is part of my secret agenda. I will be their on a Laura Croft type mission to screw the hell out of these freaking Biharis.

I am lethal combination of beauty with brains.

Eradicate those banners and others will be hoisted in their place.

People tend to decide, quite independently of the cause itself, whether their cause justifies committing violence unto others or not.