thats it. ive said it. loud and clear. did you hear that you lot? every group out there has been violent and been on the receiving end of violence - i don”t see why some of these funny indian hindu fundamentalists think they should send links to “violence” against Hindus in Bangladesh - and that it will come as a surprise to me? Goodness as if i would defend that sort of despicable violence -and pretend it didnt happen! i thought the whole point of writing about this sort of stuff is that what ive seen all over the place - people behave in the same nasty way in groups against “other” groups, and that”s why its so important to realize that its all unnecessary. people everywhere keep behaving like cunts. wake up and smell the coffee.
people are cunts
You can follow all the replies to this entry through the comments feed.
Leave a Reply
designed by Tim Sainburg | Built on Wordpress Framework | Atom Feed | RSS 2.0
twitter
- soniaafroz: If We Live in an Age of Anxiety, How Can Religion Be Dying? | Psychology Today http://t.co/9RNKaS1G December 1, 2011
- soniaafroz: RT @UN: Know anyone who made a positive impact on environment? Nominations open for @UNEPandYou Champions of the Earth Award: http://t.c ... September 5, 2011
- soniaafroz: woke up to find riot police outside my window - waiting for the EDL demonstration to come past.. September 3, 2011
delicious
- 404 Not Found October 26, 2011
RELIGION BREEDS HATE. (ANY RELIGION, not just Islam)
Violence is based on Bigotry and Prejudice. It is to be shamed, riduculed and fought against. Inevitably the roots of this bigotry lie in Religion. I dont even subscribe to the views of my own religion - Hinduism. I am an iconoclast. As I posted earlier I believe in Spinoza’s God.
I wanted you to be OUTRAGED, to let your senses know what your own religion teaches. Just like how I was outraged with stupidities of Hinduism. I wanted you to know how you support this BIGOTRY when you tell others HAPPY DIWALI or EID MUBARAK. It is not simply - “we as humans need to take responsibility of our own actions, instead of attributing them to religion or ‘God’ or not.” It is religion. Sorry Sonia, RELIGION BREEDS HATE.
If you still dont believe that religion breeds hate, I will quote you from your Quran and Hadiths. I hate Hinduism too.
‘my’ Quran and Hadiths - how do you know they’re ‘mine’? Why do you assume i might not have already taken issue with them?Why do you think everyone is some dogmatic book-toting taking everything literally-type of person who will get upset if you point ‘holes’. ( baaah! mummy —you mean everything ISNT black and white?? ) ha ha you don’t say..you and indian capitalist..is it something about the Indian education system?
you don’t know anything about me. you dont know if i dont spend a lot of arguing with ‘muslims’ as im arguing with linear thinkers like yourself. do you? so.. maybe you’re wasting your argument on someone who’s already spent a lot of time thinking about stuff…but you dont know do you because you dont know a thing about me - yet you’ve assumed i’m in some box.
and you’re trying to show people without religion are somehow not putting others into boxes and making judgements without knowing jackshit about them?
you have no idea what my spiritual beliefs are or what shape my understanding of metaphysics take. So why don’t you stop assuming things and start finding them out - instead of shoving your prejudices around and imagining everybody else does the same…
hehhe
anyway you’re wasting your time with this line of argument because organized religions in my opinion bring out the worst in people, but no more so than say patriotism, or imagined divisions between tamils and punjabis, singhalese,arabs,iranians, whatever. i guess you can’t comprehend that as widely because of the indian context: the hindu-muslim trouble is of particular relevance and since you’ve grown up with it its likely to dominate your viewpoint. of course no one is denying that strife exists and is getting worse if anything! Particularly with all the incitement to hatred stuff that is increasing everywhere.
Nope i was simply theorizing through my wider experience that there’s plenty of strife elswhere which isn’t to do with religion but is no less full of hate and division. And perhaps since you’ve only grown up in one contex then fallen into life in the US i can see that your context and experience is limited..so im not really going to bother further with you on this point..
see i need to discuss this one out with someone who has had more experience of various different conflicts/situations and has ‘grown up’ with different groups and been in differing positions throughout - and has an understanding of cosmopolitan vs. parochial. Don’t take it personally..you’ve got a two-sided view which is absolutely fair enough..but i’m kinda out of that sphere and i want to think of things on a different level. So you see we have different bees in our bonnets - your bee is Religion - and i can see why! its a common view believe me - and given the range of intolerant religious people its not too surprising.
But i’ve gone past the meaningless debate of various literal nitty gritty of some particular imagined theology cos im not gonna say - yeah this is how it is and this is right and this is wrong. Too simplistic for me, sorry.
Like i said, im interested in discussing sociology globally - and how socially we construct reality. I’m not someone who’s got sectarian feelings about this side, against that side, and say ‘i’m right - and you’re wrong! You should find yourself a hardcore Jehovah’s Witness, or those evangelists on US TV- or an ‘Islamist’ to fight that one out..you’d get more of a response i daresay!
Sonia,
“and you’re trying to show people without religion are somehow not putting others into boxes and making judgements without knowing jackshit about them? ”
I will put it in clear terms to you. YES, without religion, people have ONE LESS reason to make judgements without knowing JACKSHIT about them. DOES that make you SICK?
Religion CLASSIFIES people into BOXES. More precisely into one BOX named Kaffir ( people deserving HELL ) and the other BOX named Believers (people deserving HEAVEN). According to Hinduism those BOXES read - Brahmins (the HONORED ), Kshatriyas, Vayshias and Shudras (the CONDEMNDED). You dear Sonia, PARADOXICALLY subscribe to this BLACK and WHITE world by condoning/supporting RELIGION.
Many, people refuse to part with idealogies that are dear to them, even though facts show beyond doubt that their idealogy breeds hate. So what do people come up with? - A SCHIZOPHRENIC explanation, where one is Dr Jekyl during the day and Mr Hyde during night. This you call your “GREY WORLD” (oooh…..godness gracious!, nothing is BLACK and WHITE!). Sure indeed, it is a world where PRJUDICE is rationalized as a necessity to prevent the feeling of INSECURITY on abandoning the beliefs that are so dear to them. And for those people who recognize this INSANITY, you sonia…YOU, condemn them as MERE “Linear thinkers”?
aaaareh Baba - yaar: why are you getting so hecked up? just calm down- drink some cooling peppermint tea -you don’t seem to be understanding what i’m saying at all. Relax!
why do you think i support this bigotry? just cos im not expressing bigoted opinions against it? well i think you should drink that tea and read what ive ever actually written. you’re the one who keeps expressing bigoted opinions by imagining you know what i think and therefore feeling you are ‘going to change it’..
Its tough to understand you, for I dont even know whether you oppose me or you accept my opinions. No wonder perhaps you dont want to see the world in BLACK and WHITE
!!
Being classified as Tamils, Bengalis, Gujratis etc… is alright. In fact its good to have a culturally diverse world. I dont like a uniform world where Mac Donald culture dominates MERELY because of economics. But this classification (BOXIFICATION), does not breed hate or PREJUDICE. This cultural diversity is the heritage of mankind. eg: I love eating Korean food (Never knew that it was so different that Chinese food).
good. that’s nice you think so..but there are a lot of places in the world and throughout history people who have massacred each other for being from different ‘cultural’ divisions!!! it changes from time to time, era to era what excuses have been used to massacre someone else for.
Patriotism -hmm…, its also getting to be an ancient idea. Seriously, if I think about it I would love to see a world with no POLITICAL boundaries. Though I do wish that such a politically unified world is CULTURALLY diverse aswell.
Sonia,
Past conflicts, had more to do with GAME THEORY. People used to think it was a zero sum game when two cultures existed together. Any advantage of one culture was construed to be the disadvantage of the other.
Things have changed. The concept of European Union has clearly demonstrated that there are ways where cultures interact with each other in a win-win scenario. For example past wars between France and Germany have been replaced with cooperation for the greater good of the individuals.
We are indeed discovering the reality. Reality that, how wrong we were in the past, where we thought every interaction has to be a zero sum game!
yup it would be good its what im aiming for! individuals free to express their difference and not conform to some idea that their group has enforced on them.
unfortunately i think you’ll find patriotism isn’t an ancient idea - and living in the US as you do its a bit funny you havent seen it. the American dream is a highly patriotic idea - and you seemed to subscribe to it…but anyway..i dont really know.
Nope Sonia, American Dream is a social metaphor. America has welcomed every single nationality into its borders with open arms. America - I dont beleive is a nation, it is a phenomenon. There is no one person here in America who can claim to be ETHNICALLY American. Every single one is an immigrant. (Except perhaps the descendents of native Red Indians).
Its a melting pot. American dreams cuts across the cultural spectrum. Just because AMERICAN DREAM is confined GEOGRAPHICALLY to one region of this world, it does not mean that it is a POLITICAL construct. No ETHNIC group OWNS the AMERICAN DREAM. This is what gives it a UNIVERSAL appeal. For example : If ever there was a FRENCH DREAM in FRANCE, it would have never appealed to as diverse group of people as the AMERICAN DREAM does.
well actually its hollywood that would have us all believe that they’ve exported ‘the American Dream’ to the rest of the world via the movie screens. that’s certainly what the US embassies think ! and that we would all want to stay - hook or by crook! anyway regardless of the geographical aspect - it wouldn’t have to be a political construct - not in itself. but i think you and i both know its been used to further political ends. when any government administration seeks to gain support for its shenanigans its been very convenient to hide behind the ‘nation’ and use the ‘american dream’ as something that needs protection - thereby transforming it into a political construct.
well i don’t know how long you’ve been in the States anyway.
Sonia, you are prejudiced against the Americans. By claiming that people simply follow the HOLLOW hollywood version of whats reality you are belittling the rationality of many people. People are adult enough to know, the difference between reality and dreams. And you dont want to see this maturity in these people simply because you REFUSE to SEE it.
Every year approximately one million legal immigrants make it to america. http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb106/hb106-57.pdf .
This is apart from people coming to America as students and workers to work in America. In fact so many people come here, that many on the right are actually upset!
http://www.hireamericancitizens.org/amazing.html
I didnt even mention the statistics of illegal immigrants, which some claim it is many times the legal number!
I agreed long time back, that the American Dream could just be an illusion. It doesnt matter to me. It did inspire me to do what I did. In the same way it will inspire others. My cousins for example, much younger than me back in India, need no Hollywood to get inspired as they get constantly motivated by my presence here.
I do support, the NEED to protect this dream from certain nasty and mischevious people like …. Mister Osama bin laden. 9/11 indeed was more an attack on this DREAM rather than MERELY an attack that killed 3000 people here in America. The destruction of this DREAM for him stands for the ULTIMATE triumph of ISLAM over the kaffirs. AND Nope, I dont subscribe to the view that 9/11 was an attack on Political America. OBL is driven by RELIGIOUS hatred. HE uses people like you, to hide behind current political issues to FIGHT his RELIGIOUS wars.
I see no reason why, he will do such mean acts, if it was only a political ambition that he espouses.
You guys are getting all worked up on a non-issue. Religions are dead anyway. No one believes in that sort of BS- that God or Allah or Ram made the earth and the universe and all the living things including humans. Only some utter idiots beleive in that sort of nonsense and idiots don’t matter.
The danger today is from the international religion called communism. The communists are the biggest threat to peace and prosperity in the world. Two days ago communists terrorists attacked a jail in Bihar (India), and in a military style operation killed tens of people and freed scores of prisoners.
I think communist terrorists are much more dangerous than any islamic terrorist or a Hindu rioter or a Christian racist.
heh heh i think poor Ven was getting slightly worked up. though no doubt not such a tizzy as you get yourself into over ‘communist terrorists. Have you seen this Miss X’s blog now - she’d be fond of you - you both read Ayn Rand! isn’t that interesting. though there do seem to be a lot of blogs who list as their favourite author Ayn Rand..who appear to be indian..don’t they read anyone else? (. .now either this is a delhi st. stephen’s sort of thing…what is your idea on this mr. i.c.? you haven’t yet revealed which of delhi’s fine institutions you’ve been educated at?)
Anyway perhaps Cimurai could use his ’sniffing’ technique to work out whether Miss X is indeed a female or a ‘male’ fatale.. Better be careful though - sounds like fishermen are easy prey for this dangerous lady..
ah a good acquaintaince of mine (heh heh) who goes by the fine name of Prabhat reliably informed me that attacking jails in Bihar is a common leisure activity.
I feel a bit left out because I can’t get nearly as agitated as ven and IC, but I think holding broad religious and political creeds responsible for the violence that some people commit under their banners is a little unfair.
Eradicate those banners and others will be hoisted in their place.
People tend to decide, quite independently of the cause itself, whether their cause justifies committing violence unto others or not.
If these 3 guys ven, IC and cimurai are messing up your blog too much then i could find a good secret way of dealing with them.
Now that you raise the topic of Bihar, Sonia, I would like to tell you that Bihar too is part of my secret agenda. I will be their on a Laura Croft type mission to screw the hell out of these freaking Biharis.
I am lethal combination of beauty with brains.
Ah, just coming back from somewhere near to Mariana Trench, a long journey thought, yeah, with some catches, the sales is enough for a year cigars stock. On the way back we take a break resting at one beautiful coral island known for sharks habitat, …
like always I throw my lines, .. just for fun, to see what’s down there to have a little fun, the baits was approx. a two feet long tuna, twenty minutes waiting , there my fishing pole show its got a prey, I snaps, its hard enough … within few minutes my 190lb line cuts off, it’s a big predator, about 20ft long. …
never mind this time, for the next , since I know there something big down there in the water, I would make a try with a stronger lines, the one that could afford a pulling strength of 380lb. ….. now I am thinking about baits, … bigger hook need bigger baits, …. since the fish down there is a male, a lusty female seems to be appropriate, ….. something with ‘x’ is the best try ……. Hopefully my lines didn’t get cuts again, …… or my baits become delicious meals for my prey.
‘ms’ Sonia,
don’t know why, sometime, its always make me thinking that Indian males, always make themselves stupid and fools, enslaved themselves with idiotic thinking or be a slaves or tools to someone else. Just take a look to ww2, among one and a half million strong volunteer soldier, be them a fence on bullet for English master somewhere in south east Asia, for a war that’s have nothing to do with them, how many then have chances to see a beautiful sun shine back home in India after the war?
Now, in this war of nothing to do, once again, on blogspheres, anywhere, any place, many young Indian once again standing in the front line defending a value that not belong to them, some shouts …America … America , while some others , free thinkers … free thinkers, …. Ah perhaps its jus a few same person/s and/or character that have a trouble mind, lost in illusion in searching for a light in a bright day light.
I do met them here, and at guardian newsblog too, with the same and/or different name or character, anyway the tune sound familiar, with the same breath, carry the same idea.
Hello Cimurai back from the depths i see. no need to put an emphasis on the ms.- i wasnt particularly trying to emphasize femininity.
anyhow i just wanted to address a few things on this comment thread -( i haven’t had much time to really put anything down recently) I also wanted to acknowledge something Ven said higher up - about cultural diversity - and celebrating that, and a politically unified world which is culturally diverse as well - which i think is really important and a very good point. United in our diversity!
That is really key and is i suppose quite a paradox in some ways..
Fundamentally - its been clear to me for a while - and i think this point of Ven’s is interesting from that perspective - that most people in this world do want the same thing - which is for them and their families to be well and safe, and generally success and peace. I think even in times of war ( or perhaps its easier to see it then) the similarity becomes clearer - everyone wants to win, no-one wants their loved ones to die, no one wants to be the one who is going to suffer. Also Ven what you said about right-wingers and Christians-or anyone! - in America - yeah i do actually agree that most of these people are simply following what are generally normal values and not particularly different to anyone else. I think its interesting realizing that because then maybe we can see a way to achieve a ‘politically unified’ world which allows people and individuals within their freedom and diversity : without turning on each other - which as you rightly point out Ven - is so ridiculous and insane given we don’t need to- as most of us want the same good things for ourselves. Its a case - again - of not competing, but collaborating. And that’s hard when groups are suspicious of each other, and go head to head and fight - which is often so unnecessary - when really they both want to be understood and not really be ‘the bad guy’. The KEY thing is how do we achieve what we all want without that necessarily involving conflict with others’ interests - e.g. as in Ven’s analogy above - how do we avoid turning it into a zero sum game. Which basically boils down to people realizing that they do have the same interests and same dynamics- and that we don’t have to compete against each other - but co-operate and collaborate.
And you see this is where social systems come in - the interaction between individuals and institutions and the ‘overall system’ is obviously resultant of all these different interactions. So say for example how ‘America’ as a bloc is represented - say on the international geopolitical scene - is a complex interplay between those leading the current govt. administration, others who are caught up in the govt. system who may have different ideas to the Administration, and a whole bunch of normal individuals who live in that country.
So the hard thing is to figure out the collective direction that’s being taken - and trying to figure out how to steer that differently.
Anyway I think its all very interesting these reactions expressed as i find it very useful empirical research: deconstruct social reality and people’s understandings of groups and boundaries - and how people construct concepts of ‘the other’. As i’ve indicated - this is where my sociological interest lies and im considering further research in this field - so its really quite handy having this material here. I don’t want any of u lot to think i’m ‘impressing’ views on you guys - actually im interested in the ways you’ve come to having these views - really - because by the time you’ve come up with argument X - i don’t really want to say well actually no its not right - because of course there is a wealth of experience and context that has shaped that reasoning - and i’m interested in finding out more about that reasoning has been shaped.
( so you see IC - there may not be as many differences between you and ‘these communists’!! they probably want the same things you do but have chosen a different approach, eh?)
( and Ven - psst…i am critical of the Bush administration and the way it is steering ‘America’ on the international scene - i am also very critical of its internal dynamics specially in terms of the political economy of its media - and how it seeks to socially pressure individuals - i don’t think i’m ‘prejudiced’ against ‘americans’ - i’ve lots of american friends, and family actually - and having lived there i completely see why and how things have ended up the way they have..)
Right - peace everyone!
Sonia,
That pretty much sums it. But I need to emphasize one very important point that you have also observed here. The interaction between social groups can only become a win-win scenario when some obsolete views of groups are to be discarded. Precisely those views that make us believe that interactions have to be a zero sum game scenarios.
We as humans are discovering the truth about the nature. When billions of individual cells cooperate, they create an organism - us. There is no single set of cells that rule over the rest. Like wise in this new age of information, we are only begining to realize how we can complement each other. This, is not an opinion, but an observation.
Sonia, I was right here in US when 9/11 attacks took place. My horror, turned into rage literally immediately. For I could not comprehend the amount of hate that those suicide attackers had to kill civilians the way they did. Ever since that day, I realized that such people have no place to exist in this world of ours. I have supported Bush from that INSTANT onwards.
My dream is to see, Middle East as string of liberal democracies much like in Europe. Germany and Japan were screwed up their ASSESS, to get converted into liberal democracies they are now. Today as we write on these blogs Middle East, is a land where bigotry is name of the game. This bigotry breeds bigots like Mohammed Atta and Osama bin laden. I certainly support this “neo-con” vision for a Greater Middle east initiative. Where imposing liberal views by force can lead to change.
Sorry this vision is not about OIL as many in Europe would WANT people to believe. Just because these regions happen to be rich in OIL does not give justification to ASSUME that these wars in ME are about OIL. In past when Americans had similar “CIVILIZING DREAMS”, OIL never played a role. Veitnam, didnt have OIL, yet Americans lost over 50000 lives for the cause of defeating communists. Korea didnt have OIL. In case of Korea - Americans partially won. Just look at South Korea and compare it success to North Korea.
Yes, we Indians maybe fools, as cimurai say, in fighting wars that are not ours. I cant say about the past. I can indeed say for the present. We have a choice, we can either let religious bigotry continue its existence - that same bigotry that is responsible for so many conflicts in this world today- or to fight this bigotry. Choice is yours (not just you sonia, but for people in general
).
Cimurai,
I have a lot of Indian friends who have similar views as myself. Perhaps it is due to our shared experience of how, in India we experienced Islamic terrorism first hand. As a matter of fact you would be surprised to know that many Russians, Thais, Isrealis, Balinese, Australians, Chinese and Phillipines share similar views as ours.
To simply put we are FED up with RELIGOUS mumbo jumbo. And we want it to end. For me there is no difference between Osama Bin Ladens version of Islamo fascism and Adolf Hitler. I have least bit of sympathy for them. No amount of human emotion called empathy can ever make me feel sorry about OBL, for he is bereft of humanity. Till the day such people exist, people like me will make sure that we are heard.
Anyway - bottom line, i personally am uncomfortable with group ideology - of which clearly religion is a biggie and exemplifies the problems contained- and nationalism - is another biggie. Interestingly, so is something like which football team you support - ( e.g. in england)
i think its hard with group ideologies -because anyone seeking to go too far down the line with whatever ideology- risks becoming totalitarian, and forgetting the individual views of those in the group.
Hence i always avoid ( though people try really hard to pin you down!) being put down as subscribing to X or Y group ideology.
as far as i can see - i’ve never found any two people ( even those who allegedly imagine they are!) agreeing on the same version of their ‘ideology’ anyway!! Perhaps that’s cos i’m too much of an individualist and anarchist…
retinue!reeds ironing Brookdale flowering - Tons of interesdting stuff!!!