its getting really bad
November 7, 2005 – 1:08 pmthings are so crap now i dont really see how its going to get better. really people are their own worst enemies. granted you live in an environment which is racist and quite statist in general, you don’t want to keep quiet, but when part of the problem is that people dont understand you because they are ‘afraid’ of what they imagine your group identity to be, the last thing you want to do is go ahead and give them reason to think they were right in the first place.
all its going to do is make these people more discriminatory in future - oh yes those dodgy looking people - go around burning cars and churches - !
Stuff that starts out like this doesn’t end prettily - for anyone. its really starting to look pretty awful - i can’t really see how this is going to be smoothed over - perhaps on the surface - but underneath? as it already there is a sizeable set of opinion which is pointing how its all because those ‘foreigners’ can’t accept ‘Western values’. for fuck’s sake - not wanting violence is surely a universal value?
its also clear that the police using heavy-handed tactics is aggravating the situation but unfortunately clearly a lot of people feel they are in the ‘right’ so i dont see how the violence is going to lessen any time soon. also i cant see any useful analysis anywhere as the rhetoric appears to be bound up with laying blame and finding scapegoats. i think all that can be looked at later, the violence needs to stop now.
42 Responses to “its getting really bad”
Has anybody observed people in the immigrant community from India or China doing the same in the countries they have settled in? They have blended in and contributed immensly to the host countries they are in.
Why is it that Muslims fail to conform to the cultures of native lands? Why do they fail to succeed in places where people of the same ethnicity but of different religions have succeeded spectacularly?
Or is it still the case that native people have to adjust even more to accomodate the immigrants?
Another moot question is : why dont the immigrant community of any background have problems in USA. Why is it still a problem in Europe?
Behind these riots indeed are some skeletons in the closet and are coming out.
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
what exactly is the native land of a ‘Muslim’ anyway?
south asian muslims i think you will find have never lived anywhere else! in any case south asian muslims behave very differently to Muslims who are for example Arabs. its funny that for all your prejudices, if you went to the Middle East you would be treated by Arabs in the same group as indian/sub-continent muslims - Indian! ‘ya hindiya’ you would be referred to.
my point is people who have similarities don’t focus on that - they focus on the differences. so like you focus on the difference between yourself and another Indian who happens to be Muslim. And so it goes on and on. Does that make sense to you?
and if you say Arab = Muslim well you can think again. There are a lot of Arabs who aren’t, and besides Arabs existed before Islam so you see - your line of thinking is just that - linear - and these things we are discussing - are not - they are cyclical. And also not absolute, oh no.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
you really are living in la la land.You don’t know much about American ‘history’ do you? you think people didn’t say they had problems with an ‘immigrant community’ ? you think when the ‘american civil rights movement’ was happening people weren’t saying who the fuck are these black people telling us what to do?
and you ought to read samuel huntington’s book - ‘who are we? the challenge to america’s national identity’ and you’ll see that similar attitudes are expressed about Hispanic immigration and the worry that they’re too ‘different.’
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
Sonia,
I am a Hindu, yet most of my life I studied in Christian Convent schools in India. I am in fact proud of my eductation. This is also the case with most Indians. Yet with muslims I ask you why do many people have problems with. Is it the case that all the cultures in the world are insane to view muslims as mischief mongers or is it the case that only one group of people the muslims, have problems adjusting with practically everyone else? Take your pick.
About America, yes the past was bad. The past of India was bad too - we had the Caste system. The past of europe was bad too- You were imperialists. The past of the arabs was bad too - They invaded a lot of lands in the name of religion. The past of the Chinese was bad too - In cultural revolutions at the time of mao they killed a lot of people. The past of the Russians is also bad to. Stalin killed people by the busload.
I am talking about the present. As a student studying at Cornell University coming from India and close to my graduation, my future here is bright. This country has welcomed me with open arms. And I will repay it back for this is my gratitude to this land. Like Martin Luther King I too have dreams. And I like him too believe in this American dream. It is still alive as is witnessed by countless immigrants who came here before me. I have seen it realized with my own friends.
So I ask you does France have a dream?
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
hmm they used to say that about Jewish people too, when it was okay and accepted and the done thing to make fun of ‘Jewishness’. of course things have changed now.
as you might not have understood my point was there is no ‘one’ thing which you can say is ‘Muslim’. im sorry if that upsets you. you can create an ‘imagined’ monolithic identity for such a Muslim if you like..
in any case i dont know why you keep asking me about France?
ive only been there twice and whilst i enjoyed the Paris cafes and the beauty of its city i wasn’t much impressed by people’s attitudes: not cosmopolitan enough for me. they had similar attitudes to you- towards ‘culture’ and ‘one group’ ‘integrating’ to the ‘main group’ type things. I’ve grown up in too many different countries to be subjected to this ‘dominant’ group nonsense. if only people could see how petty it is in the grand scheme of things.
oh right - you’re still a student. aha. well once you start dealing with the system and sorting out your work permit ( alien that you are) good luck to you.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
Sonia,
I am well aware that not muslims are alike. I generalize because a muslim with modern liberal sensibilities is an exception rather than a norm. I have had a lot of muslim friends coming from India. We have a full 14 percent of our 1 billion population in India Muslim. The second largest muslim population in one single country.
I get these points across because people will fully forget the most obvious reason why there are problems with Muslims for the sake of political correctness.
Untill when will you allow mullahs issuing fatwas against salman rushdies, Van goghs, Taslima nasreens, Sania Mirzas etc? Untill when will you tolerate mullahs preaching Jihad in the name of God for a place in heaven. Untill when will you tolerate immigrants not being grateful to the native lands - One of the British suicide bomber was in fact on state unemployment funds that the British state doles out so generously, yet that sick youth blew Brits away.
Christianity was one time equally brutal. They burnt Bruno at the stake for he uttered heresy. The church put galileo on trial for he uttered the truth that the sun was the center of the solar system. Witches were burnt regularly. Jews were hated as are now by the muslims. Yet Christianity had its reformation. There was a renessiance.
Hindus were also equally brutal once upon a time. Yet we too did reform. We dont claim that we have reached perfection, the reformation is still going on.
What about MUSLIMS? Who still believe that Allah punished the people of Pakistan by killing amongst many innocent children because they sided with the Americans.
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
oh you dont know much about ‘muslims’ clearly. look at your own part of the world. maybe in india being muslim is a big deal. in case you dont know much about the Pakistan - Bangladesh fight/fuss - both of these people are mostly Muslim, but that didnt make them any friendlier or feel they were the ’same’. no the Bengalis didn’t see why they should be shoved with Pakistan because they too were muslim - in this case - the ‘muslim’ identity wasn’t sufficient to avoid a fuss.
in any case Ven identity doesn’t stand still. When you say ‘we have reformed’ how can you speak for ‘every Hindu’. What you don’t get about my argument is that it is about the problems of designating one group ‘identity’ which is seen to be fixed and immutable, when of course it depends on the flux and flow of people in and out and within the group - and who gets to speak for the ‘Group’. This is where democracy comes in - i daresay you might have heard of that one before.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
the future is bright the future is orange.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
yeah indians indeed are proud of their education. thats cos obviously so many of your countrypeople are denied of one, so if you get an education, shout very loud about it!!
‘my son is at cornell’ - said with a strong indian accent..
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
“Why is it that Muslims fail to conform to the cultures of native lands?”
This is a spectacularly ignorant sweeping statement.
Are all Muslims the same?
Do all Muslims fail to “conform” (did you mean integrate?) ?
Do all non-Muslims integrate with their host society?
I have just been living with a Georgian-Lithuanian for six months who works in the UK as the sole distributor for an Estonian company. He only mixes with Lithuanians, Georgians and Russians. He never, ever - despite much cajoling from me - ever comes to the pub. Ever.
Despite this he has drink and drug fuelled sex-parties on into the early hours of the morning several nights a week, with little consideration for his housemates. He does not distinguish between the public house and his house. A distinction I would argue which is crucially important.
I think the evidence is fairly clear that this man has comprehensively failed to integrate into his host culture. He has just taken a small piece of Vilnius with him to the UK and is now living in maly-Vilnius.
Is this a problem?
Would you demand:
“Why is it that ex-Soviet Bloc citizens fail to conform to the culture of Western Europe?”
By Ibn-Battuta on Nov 7, 2005
well you’ll enjoy reading the other sweeping statements on the Guardian news blog as well! Come and enjoy the fun..
p.s. Ven do tell me what you’re studying at Cornell?
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
Sonia,
They say half knowledge is dangerous. Your knowledge of South Asia is really poor.
Pakistan and Bangladesh were a PART of BRITISH INDIA. Before the Bristish came we were mostly a part of single empire called the Mughal Empire - a muslim one. Yet after the British granted india DEMOCRACY, being muslim was felt SPECIAL, and the MUSLIMS, DEMANDED a separate homeland for themselves - PAKISTAN.
Bangladesh was created, mainly due to racist policies followed by taller, lighter skinned PUNJABI muslims over the DARKER SHORTER Bengali (religious) bretheren in east pakistan. Yet Bangladesh never felt the need to merge back with india.
You see the IRONY is that we in India also have a PUNJAB which is the Hindu punjab and people there are ethnically same as the muslim PUNJABIS of Pakistan. We also have BENGAL in india, where the people are ethnically same as their brothers across the border in Bangladesh, yet bangladeshis never felt a bond of oneness with their (genetic) brothers across the borders.
Today, India has a MUSLIM president, SIKH primeminister, CHRISTIAN catholic head of the largest party in the parliament, SIKH cheif of army staff, in a country where majority are HINDUS.
YOU see the MOST IMPORTANT thing about a MUSLIM is his need to identify himself as DIFFERENT from non-muslims.
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
About eduction in India: Many young people in India are like me where they try to earn scholarships in universities to study here in US. So here I am a grad student working for my PhD like many others. My parents indeed are proud that I can achieve what was denied to them. If you feel that entails a guilt, for not thinking about the poor masses of India then you are wrong. For people like me are going to earn money here, repatriate money back to India and many times, do return back enriching India in return.
We live out on scholarships which private institutions like Cornell give us for it is also profitable to them as they attract talent. Although its not much but we are upto it. World is indeed a hard place to live in, but we dont want to go on strikes. We dont demand that the state takes care of me. We dont live in perniall state of demanding more. I believe every human has the ability and power to take care of himself. Sure compassion is an important part, but it is to be given rather than demanded.
So I hate the communists and the far left liberals. I also hate Religious fundamentalists including the ones that want to introduce Religion in textbooks of school children here in US.
The most dangerous people are well meaninged people who support the religious fundamentalists just because they are ignorant.
I have Quran at my home as I have the Bible and the Gita. I have read Quran and I have come to the conclusion that there are only two kinds of Muslims in this world - The ones that follow to the letter whats written in the Book and the ones that dont. The former are in majority. Of course Hindus and Christians also have bigots amongst them, but they are tempered by the fact that they are in the minority. And a lot has also to do with the fact that there were major reformations in the respective religions.
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
well what you say about needing to be different is true, but unfortunately applies to all groups.
anyway what you’re saying about the past is all true, but you cant lump all muslims in the same bracket. its not like they’re a political party with appropriate representation. some stupid muslim party demanded separation, the British like to divide and conquer, so let them go ahead. i dont see why you think all Muslims were happy with that state of affairs - if they were there wouldn’t have been separation of the two Pakistan’s afterwards. but i daresay since you’re not Muslim you think of everyone in the same bracket.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
hmm i dont think you know much about Bengalis across borders. that’s precisely the part of bangladesh my family are from and in that area, cousins across the border are still bengali and there’s the feeling of one-ness. other bengalis ive met elsewhere display different ideas of course - some display nationalistic ‘bangladeshi’ ideas - and ive met Calcutta Bengalis who think we’re different now that we’re separate nations.
see my point - difference is a socially constructed entity.
don’t go in for a sociology major - i don’t think you’d make it. better stick to engineering.
p.s. most american students think all indians look like the geeks they see in IT labs. it really made me laugh - sitting at USC - and we were watching some clip of Aamir Khan in Lagaan - and some girl was like hey! he’s goodlooking he doesnt look like all the ugly boys in the lab. she really thought all indians looked like that.
get my point?
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
ah well as i had expected. a graduate student in the school of chemical and biomolecular engineering.
no wonder you find social groups so hard to understand. i suggest you stick your area of expertise and focus on whats goin on at Olin Hall and your flow induced migration.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
i do always love how so many US universities have such private information open for public viewing. luckily im not the type to copy and paste V’s home address up on the net for potential rioters to find.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
Well I am mistaken then that you were French. Sure you sounded like one.
Its good to know that you are from South Asia (perhaps second genration desi?) and at USC! Sure you must be having a fun time there. Though never been there, I have been to UCLA campus and just admire its location on Sunset Blvd.
I think, I get your point now, sure all Indians are not Geeks. Hopefully I am not one of them! I am trying hard to also be a metrosexual
. But its getting to be tougher than being Chemical Engineering !!!!!
Whatever you say, I hate religious fundamentalists and also the far left liberal lefties - They have gone nuts!. Somehow I have developed a big irritation to beards for it always remids me of Osama Bin Laden. I have decided I will not have one in my life, that also includes a French beard!
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
then again, you’re fair bait Ven arent’ you? ‘hating’ liberals and communists and then expecting us to think you’re not a bigot? why anyone who admits to ‘hating’ people they haven’t even met falls into the category of ‘bigot’.
its nice for you you’re getting your education. so what - okay you’re working hard - why should you hate anyone who has socialist views? what you don’t like the fact that you might get a cookie you didn’t pay for? or you think that socialism will promote laziness - and oh no! there goes the work ethic?
is that what you all fear. Cos you sure as hell fear things.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
God I hate google. Flow induced migration - was my old topic of research wonder where you got hold of my old stuff? Now I am working with thermodynamic migration of branched polymers towards surfaces. Its pretty cool stuff.
I am not that dumb in socialogical issues, for posting comments at Guardian allows one to interact with a lot people with diverse view points.
Its a pity that I dont know much about you and you know everything about me.
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
Sonia,
Same can be said about you on the left. We all are not some neo-con christian evangleists whose only goal is to suck the blood out of the poor in this world which many on the left of the likes of Hugo Chavez would want people to believe. Many right wingers here in US are educated non Christian well meaninged people.
Unfortunately, stereotyping is pretty typical of most of the people on both sides of the spectrum. I dont hate the left as such. It is only when they start supporting the religious fundamentalists just because they too share the goal of eventual demise of America that hackles are raised. For the liberal left, they dont see or dont want to see it is a matter of religion. 9/11 happened before the war on Iraq. So were countless religiously motivated attacks before. Politics of the regions just serve a purpose to rekindle old relgious fires of hatred. Crusades and Jihad were fought long before even America was born. The dream of a Khilafah was there even during the time of WW1.
My message is very simple, its a call for end of ANY form of DISTINCTION based on religion. In the name of Religion we fight all across the world. I am also pretty sure it is religion that separates us despite the fact that genetically we share more genes than the people on America where we live in. In the name of religion people kill each other in Palestine-Isreal, in Kashmir, in Phillipines, in Indonesia, in Russia, in Yugoslavia, in Srilanka, in Northern Ireland. You say a place where people fight each other, inevitably it has something to do with religion. And the first step before removal of relgious barriers that separate us is simply to accept the need for reformation. Not just in Islam elsewhere too. Yet Islam today stands as the most backward - where people still claim that Allah kills people including innocent children like in Paksitan when people SIN.
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
ha ha. OK ven. even without google - its always been easy to get people’s room no.s off US Uni. directories - useful ive found some old friends that way. You never know who’s looking at what out there!
No im not a second generation ‘desi’ - i have met many of them and perhaps through meeting some yourself you may think your prejudices were justified.
i dont fit into the crowd that grew up in india and have then left. i dont fit into the crowd that are second generation desi’s. ( who are usually scathing about the ‘fresh-of the-boat’ types. perhaps you’re familiar with the FOB term.)
I’ve generally been a ‘foreigner’ everywhere i’ve lived and never has it been rubbed in more than when i lived in Dhaka for 2 years where everyone would delight in saying ‘but of course you’re a foreigner!’
Possibly this is why i’m able to take such a detached view of groups and how ‘identity’, ’similarity’ and ‘difference’ are constructed. People that other people consider ‘my own group’ don’t consider me part of their group in the way they consider themselves to be the ‘core’ they see me as on the ‘fringe’ of their cultural group - and fair enough - i am on the fringe of many groups.
But then no-one is ever the same as anyone else.
ive grown up being happy not to represent a ‘group’ but simply ‘myself’. Which is a mix of all the places ive lived and all the different people i have grown up with.
I now think of it as an advantage that i hadn’t been brought up in any one country amongst one ‘minority’ or majority group. its a lot easier for me to see how groups view each other with suspicion whilst managing to behave almost identically - certainly- psychologically and sociologically speaking.
Ah well. same old thing - goes round and round and round.
anyway i got hold of your stuff on the main cornell page when you search for people.
USC was interesting. LA was interesting. location wise being Downtown obviously made a big difference- compared to where UCLA is.
primarily the interesting aspect was the fact it was surrounded by a completely different world outside than within. inside private school - lots of well-off types ( i include myself in this analysis) and on its doorstep - South Central and a lot of troubled neighbourhoods. where i lived incidentally and as i DID NOT DRIVE and used the bus - it was quite an eye-opening experience. my friends who lived in Westwood and Pasadena lived in a completely different world - honestly - they were like 2 different countries. needless to say, not too many of my friends liked visiting me! A lot of my friends were scared because of the ‘race issue’ - i.e. as they were white they may get shot at. I did see one drive by shooting - only one - so there you go - i was lucky.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
Well then, I think you are a big mystery for me. Good luck with whatever you are doing. I have to go now.
Will drop by later and …..you know whom I will root for.
PS: My dream is Middle east transformed into a string of liberal democracies like in Europe, where religious bigotry has no place. A ME which is economically advanced as well as proud. So I support Bush
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
people who use religion as a disguise for their actions are disgusting indeed. you find them in all corners of the world. they’re the same just like hindus who used religion as an excuse to create a society that was stratified and burn women who were husbandless. they’re all the same. and if you tried to get rid of ‘religion’ thinking you were getting rid of prejudice you’d find it hadn’t worked. Sorry, religion isnt the problem. its people thinking they’re better than other people. you can have the same things with football clubs, nations, any ‘group’. your argument is like if i were to say - well clearly groups cause problems - let’s ban people from hanging out in groups.
wouldn’t work.
By sonia on Nov 7, 2005
Nope, Sonia - I am propounding a thesis - It is the religion that is the source of prejudice.
For as long as Religion exists its implications will manifest in a common well mannered man. Tell me can a Muslim ever grant equal status to an Idol worshipper? For an average muslim, subconsciously he will beleive that we Hindus will go to Hell. So how can I expect to be ever treated as an equal by him without converting to Islam? What can be more worse than suffering in eternal hell surely even death is temporary. As a matter of fact how can a muslim accept what a Cathloic does, by praying to Jesus as the son of God. If you havent read Quran, Quran clearly says that the greatest insult to Allah is ascribing to him a son from a woman (Mary).
How can a Catholic following his Bible to the letter ever accept Mohammed as a prophet. Changing the Bible is heresy, and according to them Mohammed attempted to do that. If you ask a Hindu who knows his religion by the letter for him, muslims are mlechhas. They are ignorant, and will suffer the consequences of their actions in their next lives as being born as a cockroach.
Religion, cuts us, separates us. We are fools in trying to be politically correct to accomodate everyone. The only solution of trying to accomodate all the religions is a new wave of intifadas and crusades.
Those that you claim are trying to use religion for their own political purposes would surely disagree with you. Ask Bin laden about his views on Islam, he will believe that what he is doing is in the name of God and not for his own purpose. Even bin laden was once an innocent kid. What made the kid embrace violent Islam? Did someone else provoke him or was Quran sufficient?
All religions have their own drawbacks, which clearly show that they were made by some human beings. I dont want to use this blog as pointer to the drawbacks of any religion, yet people cling to the hope that God indeed made their religion. And in his name we kill each other. What a waste of life!
By ven on Nov 7, 2005
You did remove my previous post didnt you?
By ven on Nov 8, 2005
An interesting link about reformation that you might consider:
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html
By ven on Nov 8, 2005
Sorry for the link above, it does not work.
By ven on Nov 8, 2005
ha i haven’t moved anything. its simply that when you post a comment it doesn’t go up immediately. sorry im not very technically able!
By sonia on Nov 8, 2005
clearly the American ‘dream’ has blinded many people. Sure you’re a grad student at a presitigious American university. yes once you’ve been to such a university you’re chances of success are very good and the general culture bias that Indians are hard-workers will work in your favour. great! but do you imagine everyone in America has it good? ( especially a lot of whom have been born there and don’t have much chance of getting a good enough education to allow them to apply for these scholarships and financial aid. I think you know perfectly well in many cases Indians like yourself have had a better education than many kids in the US)
that’s what the ‘American dream’ obscures. of course lots of people get opportunity. no one said they didn’t.
By sonia on Nov 8, 2005
if what you said about religion were true, then atheists ought not to display any prejudice. unfortunately they display precisely the same sort of prejudice. People who don’t have any religion themselves want other people not to have any religion. That - sociologically speaking - is exactly the same as people who wish to impose their belief system ( whether that espouses market fundamentalism, the existence of God, or the non-existence of divinity) on others who differ.
The problem perhaps is that you don’t understand that even if you don’t have ‘religious beliefs’ - which is a conventional term for whether you believe in some kind of divinity or not - one may still have a ‘belief system’. it doesn’t have to involve God. that’s immaterial. one may still believe in something - e.g. that God doesn’t exist - or one may believe that God doesn’t exist. The divinity question is really a smoke screen. So unless somehow you’re going to be able to ‘get rid of ‘people’s ‘ belief systems’ you’re not going to eradicate this problem we’re speaking of.
You yourself are demonstrating my point. you may not hold ‘religious’ views - but you still hold ’strongly held’ views which may impinge on other people since you are essentially holding forth on what people can or cannot do. See one of the problems with religious beliefs is that they tried to interfere with other people - what they could or couldn’t do. no wonder religion generally isn’t popular! but unfortunately as we can see - its not just religious people who go around banning things - why nowadays you have the same thing but reverse - banning people from demonstrating their ‘religious’ beliefs. to my mind - this kind of social control is the same thing - regardless of whatever it seeks to ‘promote’. And in both cases - the people in question are convinced they are right - and they shouldn’t be letting others do whatever it is.
The problem - is therefore -as always - in holding dogmatic beliefs ( religious or not) , and being narrow-minded instead of open.
By sonia on Nov 8, 2005
i agree completely with you about the fact that using religion to separate human beings is completely wasteful. But its humans who’ve chosen to do so. my point is we as humans need to take responsibility of our own actions, instead of attributing them to religion or ‘God’ or not. Some people don’t believe in love - some do. Some people believe in God, some don’t. its when people use their beliefs to interfere with other people things become a problem. In case you haven’t noticed, telling people not to believe in God isnt going to work. One of the reasons being that you yourself have to start forcing your beliefs on people which then everything will have come full circle.
Groups of people behave the same way, but all individuals are different. if anyone wants to express their individuality they should be allowed to without having to conform to groups. What you are talking about when you object to people ‘expressing their difference through religion; - is objecting to non-conformity of that group - within your view of the ‘whole’. Society likes conformity that’s for sure. Using religion was simply one way of social groups enforcing conformity. You’re a bit silly if you think that once religion goes out the window ( which say for example - it doesn’t hold much place in the lives of lots of people in England) so does social conformity.
By sonia on Nov 8, 2005
All prejudice does not have to be bad. If I dislike a certain kind of people then I have every right to dislike them, as long as I don’t try to hurt them physically or psychologically.
Love and hate are integral part of being a human. You can’t wish these qualities away. A society without any prejudice isn’t humanely possible unless it is imposed by force as in case of Soviet Union.
By IC on Nov 8, 2005
you can like or dislike someone - you’re perfectly entitled to that of course! but clearly you’ve forgotten what prejudice actually means:
( better brush up on that english yaar..;-) )
prejudice:
1.
a). An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b) A preconceived preference or idea.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.
By sonia on Nov 8, 2005
So you got a dictionary too! Anyway I haven’t used mine for many years (since I got out of school actually).
But it is not as if I am disagreeing with your point of view. I think you have made your point, I am only elucidating the fact that in a free society I must have the prerogative to like or dislike.
The government cannot coerce me into liking everyone, no way! I reserve my right to dislike. But yes I must not let my dislikes to inspire me into turning violent and that is what freedom is all about.
I don’t like communists for example….
By IC on Nov 8, 2005
no one should be coerced into anything - that’s the fundamental of a libertarian society.
so you see IC you do benefit from a ‘free’ society yet you don’t like liberals.
By sonia on Nov 8, 2005
We live in a Schizophrenic world dont we Sonia? Where calling an African American a negro is considered racist yet allowing someone to call me Kafir - “Infidel” (a person deserving eternal punisment in Hell) is allowed. For banning the very quintessential word that describes not being RELIGIOUS would insult religious sentiments of Muslims- wouldnt it Sonia?
You never answered me directly, tell me is it possible for a practising muslim to EVER consider me his EQUAL. Remember I am an idol worshipper according to him. Will a LIBERTARIAN society ever be possible where the very definition of following a religion is emphasis on differences with others?
The fact of the matter is a LIBERTARIAN society is an OXYMORON. It is based on the assumption that everyone is innocent and be allowed to do whatever he wishes. In part the assumption is true as even a CRIMINAL was INNOCENT once. The real PROBLEM is our INNOCENCE in BELEIVING in things that are irrational or are harmful to the society.
About Atheism, personally I am not an atheist, nor a religious Hindu. I do beleive that God exist but certainly not in the form any of us THINK he is.
However, sticking to Ateisim, there is no evidence at all that being an atheist makes you better than a believer. So is the case that there is no evidence that being a believer makes one better. Closest thing to be considered a TEST between ATHEISM and RELIGIOUS beliefs is a comparision between Western liberal societies and Religious Conservative societies like Saudi Arabia (and no America is not conservative as much as you might want to think). In Western liberal societies MOST people dont follow their religion to the book - Premarital sex, Abortions, Gambling etc are galore. In societies like Saudi Arabia, people are mostly religious. Namaz 5 times a day, Haj/Umrah every year, Fasting in the month of Ramzan etc. Yet the societies that are filled with PREJUDICE are societies like Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive, not allowed to vote. Praying to any other form of God in Churches, synagouges, Temples is BANNED. Racism is in fact is rampant, where Arabs discriminate against Muslims from countries like Bangladesh and Indonesia. Shias are prosecuted so are Ahemedis. On the contrary the mostly GODLESS western societies are MOSTLY free of Prejudice. In fact before the western countries became LIBERAL, they were conservative and VIOLA - they were infact full of PREJUDICE.
Without EXCEPTION, every religion in this world contradicts science one way or the other- Right from Darwinian evolution, to Heliocentric model, to Conception of life in a womb, to spherical earth, every religion contradicts what is OBSERVED in nature. Yet people want to believe in our INTELLECTUAL relics from the past that only serve to increase prejudice. The way of the OSTRICH, is far too easy and is known since time immemorial. It is too easy to put the MOST OBVIOUS problem facing us under the carpet. Untill one day when the pent up emotions blow like a volcano and the cycle of JIHAD and CRUSADES start all over again.
By ven on Nov 8, 2005
Sonia,
About cultural bias that Indians are hard workers. Ever wonder why this stereotype is associated with Indians and not with Pakistanis, Arabs and Muslims in General?
Believe me Pakistanis and Indians, as a matter of fact even Bangladeshis are genetically very similar. They speak similar languages, have similar customs, wear similar clothes. And most importantly work EQUALLY hard. Yet perceptions are so different. If you try to find reasons for this it is hard not to conclude that the only uncommon denominator that separates us - being religous, has a major role to play. Do you think it is because of that? Seriously I would love to know YOUR opinion. Also REFLECT on the fact that less religious Muslims, like the ones found in India - Sania Mirzas, Azim Premjis, Abdul Kalams, Salman Khans, Amir Khans, Shah Rukh Khans etc. are well respected everywhere in the world.
By ven on Nov 8, 2005
American dream:
Sure a lot of people are not in the (who knows ENVIOUS?) position that I am in to, AFFORD to believe in the American dream. Yet, you forget that I too come from a…, not so well to do background in India. A position that is not, unfamiliar to the less priviliged class here in America. It is the dream that motivated me to work hard and come here. Perhaps it was an illusion, but I say was worthwhile as it did produce results.
For the far left liberals on the contrary a dream has to fullfilled as a birth right. They DEMAND that their dreams be fullfilled. However, as I alluded to you before, we UNFORTUNATELY live in an ugly world. There is no silver bullet that can solve all our problems. Time and time again UTOPIA had been attempted, starting from the time of Prophets of the past to Karl Marx of modern times. Yet they have produced only one result - FAILURE.
One of the few ways that really motivates people to do something,.. to say change their state of existence, is to have some DREAMS. Sometimes those dreams are MISGUIDED, like the zeal of Jihadis to be a part of Heaven (JANNAT) by killing the infidel. However, there do exist some dreams which genuinely improve our state of existence. One such dream is the AMERICAN dream. I say its worth it.
By ven on Nov 9, 2005
Sonia the problem with you is that, you put the Cart before the Horse. To make you see what you dont see or want to see….
Lets start, by a simple assumption - that all people were originally innocent (as they were born innocent). They become criminal or honest based on what they learn and what their innate tendencies are. In the process a person develops belief system. A belief system of this world also called in German as “weltanschauung”. A “weltanschauung” becomes inevitable as it is needed to understand this world. Therefore, surely you would agree that, no sane person can exist without some belief system. (Note: A person could innately be an angry person, yet the anger can be directed for good causes from what he learns )
If there is a problem in the society - the source of the problem then naturally traces its origin to the belief systems that people espouse.
So…… it does matter whether one IS RELIGIOUS or NOT. Religion to many people has an OVERWHELMING influence in their definition of this world. Just talk to a MULLAH from the streets of Pakistan, very soon you will realize that RELIGION colours his vision of everything he perceives in his life. Not that I am ascribing all the problems faced by mankind to being religious, but the most important issues are - War in Isreal-Palestine, Kashmir, Aceh in Indonesia, Mindanao in Phillipines, Northern Ireland, Srilanka, 9/11 amongst many more.
Hopefully, you do have the stamina to read all that I wrote in the previous posts :-). See you for now………..
By ven on Nov 9, 2005
Liberals only claim that no one should be coerced. But in reality they succeed in creating the most coercive society. Chirac is a liberal, by appeasing the Muslims in France he has in fact encouraged them to go out on a rampaging riot.
This riot will lead to backlash from the Christian French and even to a Far Right government. So if you want freedom you should not appease any community. All cultures are not equal. Some cultures are good, other cultures are BS. The BS cultures should be branded as what they are, and those who insist on following such cultures should be prosecuted under the law.
By IC on Nov 9, 2005
Interesting point you make re: the perception of indians as hard workers. i’ve definitely benefited from it myself!
as have Pakistanis in this country - the people IC refer to as ‘white’ don’t distinguish between ‘asians’. So we’re all ‘professional’ and usually in ‘IT’ or sth like that! Except for the people they see working in the restaurants. Whom they imagine to be Indian - as they’re ‘Indian’ restaurants - but a large amount of these restaurants are actually from a specific corner of Bangladesh - Sylhet, which as you may know - is over the border from Assam.
By sonia on Nov 9, 2005